[Childfree] Childfree discussion

Wed Feb 7 12:42:27 MST 2007

1. Who should be in this group?
	Generically I would say that only people who don't have children should be allowed in the group.  I do not include individuals who have had abortions or given a child up for adoption right after birth.  Empty nesters still have children and will most likely have grandchildren which can make them more gushing about kids than parents, so it would be the very rare exception that they would be allowed to be members.  I can think of a scenario where step parents might be allowed:  my father remarried when I was 26 and is now deceased.  I have never considered his widow to be my mother (in any form) and we only communicate through the occasional email and Christmas card.  Technically she is a parent so I am not sure that she should be allowed membership.  Gray areas should be a group decision.  Unfortunately, it becomes a slippery slope and once you make an exception then it is hard to deny others membership.  People are always free to start their own group or host their own events and invite whomever they wish.  People who find our group through a Google search and attend an event for the first time have an expectation of the status of the people will be attending.  We should honor that expectation.

2. When should a person leave the group?
	I would hope that someone who's status has changed would voluntarily leave the group.  It does not mean that they cannot socialize with group members but it would have to be outside childfree events.  

3. Who should enforce the rules?
	It should be a group decision when the rules need to be enforced but one person should be elected to act as a spokesman for the group.

4. What constitutes a CF event?
	Unless clearly stated as an open event it is by default childfree, whether it is posted to the Wiki or through the email alias.

5. Comments/questions 
	The childfree nature of this group is important to me.  Parents and children have overtaken every aspect of life and believe that they are entitled to be wherever they chose to go.  I am thoroughly convinced that if I hosted a "Crack Pipe and Porn" party for the general population that someone would bring their kid and then complain that there's crack and porn. I just want my little piece of the universe that is free from children where I can host parties or attend events with like minded people.  I have no interest in debating the merits of being childfree with anyone and this group allows me to just be who I am without question.  

Some parents are capable of participating in adult conversation and activities without bringing the kids into the mix (either literally or figuratively). I'm not sure it is fair to them to invite them in the group and then oust them when they cross the line (wherever that line is).  They might feel they are constantly walking on eggshells and then question why they were ever given membership. 

childfree-request at lists.robsims.com wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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>    1. Childfree discussion (sellers66 at comcast.net)
>    2. Re: Childfree discussion (sellers66 at comcast.net)
>    3. Re: Childfree discussion (G. K. Endress)
>    4. RE: Childfree discussion (susan_wolber at agilent.com)
>    5. Re: Childfree discussion (Rob Sims)
>    6. RE: Childfree discussion (Laura Hinds)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 01:51:46 +0000
> From: sellers66 at comcast.net
> Subject: [Childfree] Childfree discussion
> To: childfree at lists.robsims.com
> Message-ID:
> 	<020720070151.11120.45C930B20002C61800002B702213539653C0C09C9D0A04040A9C at comcast.net>
> 	
>
> I think it’s about time we had an open and honest discussion about how we want to define this group and how we see things going forward. I had originally thought about doing this as an anonymous survey, but then decided that it was probably better to just throw this out to the mailing list and make it an open discussion. Feel free to answer any of these questions, all of them, or none of them – it’s entirely up to you. Feel free to add any other comments in the comments section. Your input is important here – it doesn’t matter if you’ve been in this group one day or one year, this is our group, all of ours, so let’s hear what you have to say! 
>
> First, please go and read the front page of the Childfree Wiki at http://www.renegadebrewer.com/ChildFreeWiki to get a sense of why this group is here and what it’s about. Then complete the survey. 
>
> Thanks in advance to those who choose to do this – your opinions are important and will help to make this group better in the long run!
>
> And although I’m sure I don’t have to say it, I will anyway – feel free to disagree with each other but let’s keep the gloves on, mmmkay? 
>
>
> 1. Who should be in this group?
> 	Who do you think should be in this group? Should we allow parents? Stepparents? Empty Nesters? What about people who have had a child but gave it up for adoption? Those who aborted? Just how childfree is childfree? Why should or shouldn’t these people be in this group?
>
> 2. When should a person leave the group?
> 	When do you think someone should either leave the group voluntarily or be asked to leave? When they marry a person with children? When they have a child of their own? When they adopt a child? Why? How would we know if their status has changed? 
>
> 3. Who should enforce the rules?
> 	Should one individual be in charge of maintaining order? If so, how do we choose that person? Should it be a group effort, and how would that work?
>
> 4. What constitutes a CF event?
> 	What would you consider to be a “strictly” childfree event? If it’s posted to the Wiki? Sent to the Childfree mailing list at childfree at lists.robsims.com? Can someone post a non-childfree event to the email list or the Wiki as long as they state it is not childfree? 
> 	 
> 5. Comments/questions 
> 	Add any comments/questions here. 
>
>
>
> 	
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 01:53:45 +0000
> From: sellers66 at comcast.net
> Subject: Re: [Childfree] Childfree discussion
> To: childfree at lists.robsims.com
> Message-ID:
> 	<020720070153.13835.45C93129000412E00000360B2213539653C0C09C9D0A04040A9C at comcast.net>
> 	
>
> Since I've had more time to think about this, I'll go first :)
>
> 1. Who should be in this group?
> 	Who do you think should be in this group? Should we allow parents? Stepparents? Empty Nesters? What about people who have had a child but gave it up for adoption? Those who aborted? Just how childfree is childfree? Why should or shouldn’t these people be in this group?
>
> I think it’s pretty obvious that parents do not belong in a childfree group. The original purpose of this group was to be able to have social events without dealing with people either making every subject about their kids or dragging them along whether appropriate or not. I also identify empty nesters as parents – they have kids, and probably will have grandkids, which brings us right back to why we founded a social group that didn’t include people with children. 
>
> I am also against stepparents being in the group. I can see where this would be a big gray area for some people, so I’ll give you my reasons. First of all, in a former life I was a stepparent. Anyone who thinks that because they are not your biological children you will not have to deal with them is sorely mistaken. Even living 1000 miles from you they have a way of getting involved in every detail of your life, and along with them you get the added attraction of the ex spouse (or spouses, if you’re REALLY lucky). It’s the worst side of parenting – you get all the problems and none of the control, which makes it really hard not to make them a large percentage of your topics for conversation. In addition to that, I personally think that it’s a slap in the face to your spouse – you knew this person had kids when you married him or her, and you had to know that at least part of the time you would have to take on some parenting responsibilities. I think it says both to the spouse
>   and t
> he stepchildren that they are not too important to you, since you’d rather hang out with your childfree friends. If you’re living with someone with kids and not married, I guess I would lean towards putting you in the stepparent category. I also don’t have a lot of respect for non-custodial parents who act like they don’t have kids and/or don’t support them financially – they need to grow up and take care of their responsibilities. I really don’t feel the need to spend an evening telling that kind of person what an idiot he or she is, because they just don’t get it. Acting like you don’t have kids even though you do does not make you childfree. That ship has sailed, my friend. 
>
> In the case of people who’ve given up a child for adoption or women who have aborted a child, I’d have to consider them childfree. First of all, it’s unlikely you’d ever know about it, since most people don’t broadcast that type of information indiscriminately across the universe. As long as the person wasn’t going around loudly bemoaning the fact that a child has been given away or aborted, I don’t see a problem with it. 
>
> 2. When should a person leave the group?
> 	When do you think someone should either leave the group voluntarily or be asked to leave? When they marry a person with children? When they have a child of their own? When they adopt a child? Why? How would we know if their status has changed? 
>
> I would hope people would have enough common sense to leave the group when it becomes clear that they are no longer childfree, which in my opinion means they have either a) had a kid b) adopted a kid, or c) married someone with a kid. If someone is dating a parent, great, they can stay in the group, but I certainly do not want that parent attending childfree events. It starts the slippery slope argument that once you let one in, eventually several are in, and it defeats the purpose of the group. I would think that if you are dating a parent and it becomes serious, you would not really be all that interested in a childfree social group anyway. We’ve all had experiences where our formerly childfree friends have started having kids, and I’d be willing to bet that you don’t hang around with them as much, simply because you don’t have the same common interests anymore. It would be the same thing dating a parent – why would you want to go to an event where your significant other is
>  n’t we
> lcome?
>
> 3. Who should enforce the rules?
> 	Should one individual be in charge of maintaining order? If so, how do we choose that person? Should it be a group effort, and how would that work?
>
> In a perfect world, this group would police itself. People would just have the common sense to know if it’s time to leave the group or which of their friends they can invite to group activities. Unfortunately, the reality is there is always someone who just doesn’t “get it”, and I’m not sure what the best way is to deal with that. Do we have a “board” of several people who police the group? Might be better than having just one person do it. I really don’t have a good answer to this one. 
>
> 4. What constitutes a CF event?
> 	What would you consider to be a “strictly” childfree event? If it’s posted to the Wiki? Sent to the Childfree mailing list at childfree at lists.robsims.com? Can someone post a non-childfree event to the email list or the Wiki as long as they state it is not childfree? 
>
> I would think that anything posted to the Childfree Wiki should be considered strictly a childfree event. I would prefer the email list be the same way. I don’t mind the occasional “non-childfree” event posted to the mailing list as long as it is clearly stated that it is not childfree. Examples of this are Keith’s Halloween party and Rob’s New Year’s party. As long as there is a clear statement in the email that this is NOT a childfree event, then people can make an informed decision as to whether or not they want to attend. I would, however, like to see that sort of thing kept to a minimum. 
> 	 
> 5. Comments/questions 
> 	Add any comments/questions here. 
>
> I’d just like to try and explain why having this childfree group is important to me. 
>
> I am not a big fan of kids. I don’t hate them, but I don’t necessarily want to spend my free time with them, either. Generally, it’s the idiotic parenting I see more and more of every day that gets under my skin. 
>
> I realize that not everyone is a member of this group because of the fact that it is childfree. Some of our members are just here for the social aspect, and the whole kids/parents thing is not a big deal to them, and that’s fine, as long as they respect the needs of the group. 
>
> The childfree thing IS a big deal to me. I like having one corner of the universe where I don’t have to justify why I don’t want kids, force myself to act like everything someone’s kid does is cute or interesting or particularly amazing, and where I can invite people to my home without having to worry about someone deciding at the last minute to drag along their progeny.  I like not having to monitor everything I say because “the children”  might be listening. I like being able to have a conversation that does not revolve around diapers, nap times, or at what age a child should stop sucking its thumb. 
>
> So, there’s my two cents - probably more like two dollars with inflation being what it is these days. :)
>
> Ann
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 18:25:33 -0800 (PST)
> From: "G. K. Endress" <gke71 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Childfree] Childfree discussion
> To: childfree at lists.robsims.com
> Message-ID: <20070207022533.17510.qmail at web37203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Ok I'll chime in here: 
>
> 1. Who should be in this group?
>
> - Anyone who is technically childfree (has never produced an offspring of any kind).
> - Former step-parents (were married to a parent, now divorced, widowed, etc.)
>  
> I'd also be open to anyone who has had a child but gave up for adoption/miscarried, etc. Also empty-nesters don't bother me too much - especially if their children are friends of mine. Technically their children aren't children anymore so that's a grey area. For me I just don't want to be spending time in this group with people who currently have little rug rats (as Ann mentioned, that defeats the purpose of this group).
>
> 2. When should a person leave the group?
>     
> As soon as a person becomes a parent (however you define it ... step, adoptive, etc). of a child (someone who is not an adult).
>  
> 3. Who should enforce the rules?
>
> I would like to see the founder of this group enforcing the rules. 
>
> 4. What constitutes a CF event?
>
> Any event that is posted on the Wiki and/or mailing list, that does not come with a specific disclaimer of "this is no a child-free only event". And I also agree these events should be kept to a  minimum.
>
> 5. Comments
>  
> I also agree that for events that are not designated "not a child-free only event", any one dating a parent should not bring said parent along. 
>  
> I'd say if someone really wanted to bring a parent along, they need to ask the entire group if it's ok first and explain the situation. 
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "The cosmos is all that is or ever was or ever will be. Our feeblest contemplations of the cosmos stir us ... [and] we know we are approaching the greatest of mysteries" - Carl Sagan
>
>
>  
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 23:36:56 -0700
> From: <susan_wolber at agilent.com>
> Subject: RE: [Childfree] Childfree discussion
> To: <childfree at lists.robsims.com>
> Message-ID:
> 	<78C934D0E1A588449B46F68346FB76C701C3D60F at wcosmb08.cos.agilent.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
>
>  
> 1. Who should be in this group?
> 	Who do you think should be in this group? Should we allow parents? Stepparents? Empty Nesters? What about people who have had a child but gave it up for adoption? Those who aborted? Just how childfree is childfree? Why should or shouldn't these people be in this group?
>
> Anyone who:
> - is an adult (via the duck typing test :-)
> - does not bring (or expect to bring) children to CF events
> - is not judgemental about being childfree
> - can talk about something other than kids (theirs or others)
>
> I don't care if they have had or not had kids, if they want to have kids or not.  I care that they are not judgemental about my choice to not have kids, and do not inflict their children on me at a CF event.  I care that they are willing to have a life outside kids, which means topics of converstation outside of kids.  I care that they are willing to do social events and activities such as movies, snowshoeing, etc, whether in an adult setting, or even a kid-friendly setting such as a corn maze.
> So obviously I think empty nesters should be welcome.
>
>
> 2. When should a person leave the group?
> 	When do you think someone should either leave the group voluntarily or be asked to leave? When they marry a person with children? When they have a child of their own? When they adopt a child? Why? How would we know if their status has changed? 
>
> Figure it out as needed. Let's not get militant.
>
> 3. Who should enforce the rules?
> 	Should one individual be in charge of maintaining order? If so, how do we choose that person? Should it be a group effort, and how would that work?
>
> Figure it out as needed. Let's not get militant.
>
> 4. What constitutes a CF event?
> 	What would you consider to be a "strictly" childfree event? If it's posted to the Wiki? Sent to the Childfree mailing list at childfree at lists.robsims.com? Can someone post a non-childfree event to the email list or the Wiki as long as they state it is not childfree? 
>
> A CF event is one to which the CF attendees do not bring children, and all CF attendees have an open attitude about those of us who choose to be childfree.
> 	 
> 5. Comments/questions 
> 	Add any comments/questions here. 
>
> Let's be welcoming, not militant.  Child-free, not anti-child.
>
> Sue and Bob
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 08:54:11 -0700
> From: Rob Sims <rob at robsims.com>
> Subject: Re: [Childfree] Childfree discussion
> To: childfree at lists.robsims.com
> Message-ID: <20070207155411.GA11684 at robsims.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> On Tue, Feb 06, 2007 at 11:36:56PM -0700, susan_wolber at agilent.com wrote:
>
>   
>> Let's be welcoming, not militant.  Child-free, not anti-child.
>>     
>
> As long as the events and conversation don't involve "the kids" why
> should anyone care?  I'm with Bob and Sue on this one.  What's the
> purpose of the group?  To promote a childfree agenda or just to have a
> social group of like-minded people?  From what I understand, pointless
> rules are what broke up the No Kidding group.
>   
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